When Bankers Break Down!
Email Brawl Exposes the Brutal Hours and Boring Work Of Junior Investment Bankers
The extreme hours and often menial work that characterize the lives of many junior investment bankers were on display last night in an exchange between a first-year analyst and a more senior associate at a middle market investment bank. It all began with a note at 6:04 PM. Although the original back-and-forth was strictly between two colleagues, the emails were forwarded outside the firm by a later recipient. As these things are wont to do, the mêlée very quickly spread through investment banking circles.
The spat began after Roger asked Billy (we’re changing the names because we have been unable to reach the people involved) to put together a working group list for him within an hour. Working group lists are used by investment bankers and law firms to collect and disseminate the contact information of professionals working on a transaction. Putting the lists together is not difficult but it is notoriously boring work. Although Roger’s request is rather straight-forward, Billy objected to the request and told Roger he thought it sounded “testy.”
“There is really no reason to get testy, Roger,” Billy said. “I was here all night, you know that, and I am curious as to why you are passing this off to me. I am aware that it takes 5 minutes to do, but you should know there is a difference between ‘pushing back’ and wondering why (for the 2nd time this week) you are giving me in particular a WGL. I thought that’s what staffing is for.”
[The rest of the exchange, after the jump]
It seems Roger didn’t appreciate being spoken to like this by a subordinate. In the hierarchical culture of investment banks, junior staffers are not expected to accuse superiors of being testy, complain about the amount of hour they work or mention that they are being improperly staffed on projects.
“There is ABSOLUTELY a reason for me to be upset and let me be clear that you grossly misunderstand how things work,” Roger replied. “In banking all nighters are part of the job, not an excuse for an attitude. I spent most of my weekend in the office and have been at work past 3am for 3 days in a row. I’m mature enough to understand that my superiors have their own problems and me not getting too much sleep is not something I should be advertising/whining about. Learn this.”
The objection to being staffed on the project drew a particularly strong reaction.
“As far as staffing is concerned, do NOT tell me how the system works,” Roger wrote. “If anyone in this firm has a short assignment which they need help on and assistants are gone, they can and will ask you. Unless you want a crap reputation, your attitude to work at this point in your career should be thanks, give me more. Nothing else. Thanks for the wgl.”
In the final email, Billy initially refuses to back down. To the contrary, he seems to be the type who believes that every moment is an opportunity to learn something. And that this moment is a particularly good one to educate Roger on the polite way to interact with people.
“I am willing to take the high road here and not bicker about this any more. However, under NO circumstances will you to speak to me like that, EVER again,” Billy wrote. “Outranking me is one thing, but condescending is completely unnecessary and insulting is absolutely unacceptable. I sincerely hope you take that to heart immediately.”
By the end of the message, however, Billy begins to sound quasi (i.e. not) apologetic. “I apologize for the misunderstanding, and I have said my peace,” he writes.
A short time later the exchange began to circulate to outsiders. It spread rapidly to investment bankers from coast to coast.
The little brouhaha seems to be indicative of the pressures of working inside an investment bank—long hours combined with work that is sometimes “mind numbingly boring” and sometimes involves hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars, if you're a first-year, holding your ankles for extended periods of time—can ignite short tempers. One investment banker familiar with the email described his work schedule as a junior analyst as “nearly Hobbesian.”
“It was nasty, brutish and very, very long,” he explained.
Which sounds a bit like the trail of emails exchanged last night between the two bankers we are calling Billy and Roger.
Calls placed to the involved parties this afternoon were not returned.
Comments
I agree the long hours and mind-numbing work have much to do with these sort of exchanges (which take place weekly in my group). What people often overlook is that analysts are generally significantly smarter than the associates senior to them and this leads to disagreements and confrontations.
I mean really, who would get an MBA just to become an banking associate - talk about a waste of tuition.
Posted by: Junior Banker | May 31, 2007 08:48 PM
christ...if anyone at goldman so much as raised an eye brow at a superior they'd be fired on the spot.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 31, 2007 08:54 PM
What a whiny little, insubordinate bitch.
Posted by: anon | May 31, 2007 09:40 PM
the "smartest" people in the class and they say "hire me, i want to kiss your ass". Well, they get what they want :)
Posted by: opol | May 31, 2007 09:42 PM
Best part is that this came from Morgan Joseph! Hahaha that bank is crushing their analysts and associates and no one even knows who they are!
Posted by: Morgan Joseph for Life! | May 31, 2007 09:50 PM
Here is a lesson for you: both grow balls enough to confront face to face.
No instead you two are a couple douchebags...dime a dozen.
You are going to be hearing these words a lot.
"grande nofat latte"
Posted by: Your Friendly Corner MD | May 31, 2007 09:56 PM
Is Morgan Joseph actually a bank? I thought it was a steakhouse
Posted by: T | May 31, 2007 10:06 PM
I thought it was a clothing store
Posted by: MJ Lover | May 31, 2007 10:11 PM
Another young punk comes to wall street and thinks that he'll be a big swinging dick in his first year. Putting WGLs together is beneath him.
Posted by: Steve | May 31, 2007 10:13 PM
The story makes no mention of which bank the two work for and changes their names. How are you so sure you've got it right?
Posted by: Curious | May 31, 2007 10:14 PM
Re Steve's comment, I'm surprised the young punk thought he'd be a BSD at Morgan Joseph. I've worked in IB and PE for a number of years now and never heard of them...thought they were a Steakhouse, or an energy MLP.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 31, 2007 10:27 PM
I heard it was Houlihan Lokey!
Posted by: Anonymous-and-Overworked | May 31, 2007 10:34 PM
thats why i work at a hedge fund
Posted by: Anonymous | May 31, 2007 10:58 PM
Now don't try to tell me Houlihan's isn't a burger joint!
Posted by: Sarge. Equity | May 31, 2007 11:12 PM
I'd guess Jefferies!
These guys have to much swagger not to think they are big shots. Can't be the steakhouse.
Posted by: Lewis Black | May 31, 2007 11:20 PM
It was definitely Morgan Joseph. Saw the original email this morning. If you had asked me yesterday to guess if Morgan Joseph was the name of an investment bank or a steak house, I would have guessed steak house.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 31, 2007 11:50 PM
Morgan Joseph? Piss poor rep on the street. Still, I'd fire Billy's ass ASAP. Little fucker.
Posted by: anonymous | May 31, 2007 11:54 PM
Yeah, Morgan Joseph. Got the original emails and they hadn't bothered covering up the names on it. Love how quick it spread.
Posted by: AJ | June 1, 2007 12:35 AM
Yeah, you know it's a bubble when Morgan Joseph analysts are talking back. Hahaha. That's why I keep straight cash. Obviously it's not Houlihan or any other semi-reputable bank. They would never hire such a bitchass.
Posted by: Morgan Joseph for life! | June 1, 2007 01:01 AM
Yeah, after finishing up in New Haven" and my MBA in "Boston" I became a banker at Morgan..."
"Oh Morgan Stanley?"
er...
"JP?
"um, uh... Joseph"
Posted by: Paul Leeze | June 1, 2007 02:26 AM
What a punk ass analyst! If that was my analyst... I would make sure to put him/her in their place. I had to earn my stripes... MBA or not!
Posted by: Anonymous | June 1, 2007 04:04 AM
Make him cry! Make him grip his pillow tight! Working in a bank is not a fucking democracy.
Posted by: E | June 1, 2007 08:30 AM
I thought that pledging was for college fraternities. Laughable that its also the rite of passage in IBanks. Stay up all night, do menial taskwork, get beaten down by superiors and if you do the anal chug, we'll give you a highly coveted in PE.
Posted by: Latch | June 1, 2007 08:38 AM
If you're at the bottom of the totem pole, you do the grunt work. Basic rule of life.
Posted by: Anonymous | June 1, 2007 08:55 AM
"Yeah, you know it's a bubble when Morgan Joseph analysts are talking back. Hahaha. That's why I keep straight cash. "
You're all-in in cash. That's really smart, you only missed a 7 year rally. What kind of investment banker are you?
Posted by: anon | June 1, 2007 09:41 AM
I don't think it's a firing offense to push back. I've pushed back a few times, using very animated and heated words, against my PM. He, in turn, pushed back harder and put me back in my place. However, he's never held it against me. He demands a lot, and sometimes expects pushback. He's also been in the business 26 years vs. my 6.
The key is, be a man and do it face to face. Only a true wimp would do it over e-mail, or even IM...
Now, even IF this might have been something people could overlook, it won't be that way anymore now that everything is public.
Posted by: Anonymos | June 1, 2007 09:56 AM
any decent PM should want push back. hiring an analyst who will just yes-man all your picks is worse than useless, its dangerous.
not so in banking.
Posted by: Anonymous | June 1, 2007 10:13 AM
Morgan Joseph sounds like some quasi-curse you'd hear in Ireland. "Jesus, Morgan Joseph. These cabbages are dodgy!"
Posted by: Anonymous | June 1, 2007 11:13 AM
If he had a history degree like me, things would be much easier for him in trading.
Remember "Liar's Poker"? In that book it was suggested that to get hired one had to fling poop on the interviewer.
Worked for me.
Posted by: LippyTex | June 1, 2007 12:20 PM
the system has already eaten you all,
refusing a WGL is certainly stupid enough but if I were the head of that steak house I would certainly more worry about how does my associate answer look in the press
the analyst complaining is one thing, maybe not so good for his career (which already seems to have started on the wrong foot (choosing a steak house)
But the associate should have never wrote things like that.
i) not good press when leaked
ii) potential lawsuit issues
iii) teambuilding and respect of your teamates
don t know for your banks mates but I have experienced that you are much more efficient in a respectfull working environment, and at least some of the majors understood it
Posted by: crunchh | June 1, 2007 01:25 PM
Oh my God! Two white guys got snippy with each other in an email. Call the police! Teh Marines! Someone tell the President!
What a lame fucking story.
Posted by: WTF | June 1, 2007 02:49 PM
They both come across as unprofessional and insecure. A pox on both their houses.
Posted by: Anonymous | June 1, 2007 03:27 PM
I agree with 2:49. This isn't news. This is about as uncommon as birdcrap on a park bench.
Posted by: Anonymous | June 1, 2007 04:10 PM
The steakhouse associate should definitely consider killing himself for 4 reasons:
1) He is an investment banking associate. Anyone stuck in IB over the analyst position in a market as buoyant as this is clearly trash.
2) He works for a bucket shop/ steak house/ shit bank.
3) He will soon be serving lattes while paying down mounds of Duke b-school debt. His family will excommunicate him.
4) He is a banker.
Posted by: F***Goldman | June 1, 2007 06:52 PM
Man, you bankers are assholes.
Posted by: Notta Banker | June 1, 2007 09:09 PM
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Posted by: Anonymous | June 1, 2007 09:56 PM
i am in a middle market hell and i have never even heard of morgan joseph...
its sad that there is a middle market bank that has less rep than mine.
Posted by: cain | June 4, 2007 03:17 PM
I say good for him, the only reason most of these senior banking assholes act so tough and demand respect is becuase they never got any growing up and were fucking geeks
Posted by: Randy Langman | June 6, 2007 07:01 PM
So it was definitely Morgan Joseph? Can someone post or send me the original email or tell me the email addresses it came from? I have friends at Morgan Joseph
Posted by: accidentalbnkr | June 11, 2007 05:39 PM