Turning Every Californian Into A Quant?

One of the persistent education trends in recent years has been the ratcheting up of graduation standards in high schools. The end of social promotion, piling on language, science and math requirements and stacking standardized tests on top of standardized tests.

Part of this is a natural reaction to the realization that our teachers have simply not been doing a good job teaching students. Since we can't trust the word of teachers that students are learning the right thing, we set up objective tests.

But have we gone too far? In our generous and egalitarian urge to make every child above average, we now require a very high level of performance for students graduating from high school in many areas of the country. In California, for instance, graduating students are now required to take Algebra I, Geometry, and Algebra II. Now understanding these subjects is probably the minimum requirement for many jobs in our new economy, it's not clear that every student in, say, Los Angeles—where only 10% score above 500 on the math portion of their SAT—is really capable of passing the requirements.

Writer Steve Sailer thinks raising the requirements to this level is, well, a little bit nuts.


I suspect that the mathematicians who dreamed up these standards wish that they had been taught like this in high school. They wouldn't have been so bored if their courses had been geared at a much higher level of abstraction.

So, this is how they get their revenge on the assistant football coach who bored them so badly when he taught them Algebra I -- by making him try to explain, on a hot day in early September, the closure properties of the irrational numbers to high school freshmen who add and subtract on their fingers.

Most of DealBreaker's readers have a facility with numbers. It's a job requirement for much of Wall Street. So we might be the best qualified to judge whether everyone is capable of passing something as basic of Algebra II. But we're curious what the general opinion of our readers is of this level of math requirements in high school. Is every child a budding quant, just waiting for math teachers to get their act together and start assigning Fermat's Theorem as homework?

Are they nuts? The State of California's Algebra I standard [iSteve]

Comments

Posted by girl, Oct 02, 2007 10:39AM

I recall passing through algebra II in 7th grade. is this a joke? why require kids to even graduate highschool if they aren't being prepared to even be accepted to a decent university

Posted by AJ, Oct 02, 2007 10:40AM

The scary thing is that Algebra I (solve for a in 2+a=5) and Geometry (the angles a,b,c of a triangle add up to 180 degrees) are considered too hard.

Although I would agree with the assertion that maybe college isn't meant for everyone and that highschools should at least offer students the opportunity to learn more practical skills that will transfer to decent paying non-college degree jobs (mechanics, welders, etc)

Posted by , Oct 02, 2007 10:40AM

Algebra I and Geometry are both very easily applied in daily life. Algebra 2 does probably get more complex than your rotm Walmart clerk could use. But I would require it replaced with basic Statistics

Posted by , Oct 02, 2007 10:46AM

girl are you suggesting its standard that people take algebra II in 7th grade or are you just trying to impress us?

yes it's very impressive you followed that with 5 years of calculus in 8th-12th grade and had already completed multivariable and vector fields before starting college but really do you think that is relevant here?

Posted by Sun-Tzu, Oct 02, 2007 10:51AM

Are we talking about all students or just Asians? Because everybody knows that white chicks can't do math (even algebra)

Posted by , Oct 02, 2007 10:53AM

I agree with 10:40, statistics should be a priority

Posted by Ramblin' Wreck, Oct 02, 2007 10:54AM

AJ: I know my HS offered different levels of classes: Tech Prep for the mechanics/welders/etc., College Prep for everyone else, and then Honors College Prep/AP for people like girl. I don't know if that's everywhere, but a system like that makes sense. Why teach the future Mickey D's manager Calculus? Not like he needs to mathematically model the heat transfer from the grill to the patty.

Joint Enrollment is a great option too. Take freshman college courses at a local university during your senior year of HS, because at some point, the smart kids in HS know more than the teachers with a BA in Education from Community College.

Posted by s7.5, Oct 02, 2007 10:59AM

really your average guy out there should understand a few basic things like statistics, simple coordinate geometry, basic algebraic functions.

trig and higher order math should be strictly optional. stats definitely mandatory.

Posted by , Oct 02, 2007 11:04AM

I think the focus here is a bit off. Algebra 2 is not so complex that anyone who has kept up consistently with their studies in grammar/secondary school cannot get it. We are not talking deeply theoretical mathemics here.

Upping the reqs obviously won't help if you are not taking a deeper focus at the elementary level

Posted by Michael Bolton, Oct 02, 2007 11:14AM

This is pathetic...whining about Algebra in high school. If you ask me, algebra, calculus 1 and a bit of trig are all meaningful and should be known by all that graduate high school. Funny thing is that the above mentioned are still a unpentrable mystery to most college graduates.

Posted by Bulging Bracket, Oct 02, 2007 11:16AM

Standards need to be raised even more. And fire teachers (and seisze their assets) if they can't or won't teach their students to an acceptable level.

Need at least 2 stats courses, if not 3, more science requirements, logic and game theory requirements, history of science... The major problem is that teachers barely passed HS and got a "degree" in education. Cue the Cramer: "THEY KNOW NOTHING!!!!!"

Make a math heavy IB the minimum graduation standard, require teachers to actually work, and hire people who actually know something. Forget requiring ed degrees and start requiring math and engineering degrees.

Posted by , Oct 02, 2007 11:17AM

Algebra II is f'n hard. They expect HS students to understand Galois theory. And i thought my College Alma Mater was hard.

Posted by Lee D, Oct 02, 2007 11:22AM

I would say that we're better off beefing up the core requirements for math and sciences all the way from elementary through secondary school. If some kids can't hack it, and end up funnelled out into dead-endsville, that's one thing, but to have bullshit requirements, and have bright, capable kids end up in dead-endsville because they had no access to a better curriculum is just a waste of human potential.

Cutting out math and complaining that kids are dumb is like cutting phys-ed and then complaining that kids are fat. Yet, it happens.

Posted by Anon, Oct 02, 2007 11:26AM

You should see the college entrance requirements for Chinese students. If the US doesn't raise it's math game big time, we'll be left behind. The solution? These kids should study harder.

Posted by , Oct 02, 2007 11:29AM

Michael Bolton, please explain to us how most people in this country need to explain infinity limit functions, the chain rule, or irrational numbers as a MINUMUM requirement to achieve a high school diploma

Posted by , Oct 02, 2007 11:30AM

They have to be high. How many kids do they have? Now, how many colleges?

Posted by Hillbilly Banker, Oct 02, 2007 11:33AM

My jametree teecher tole me "Pi r squared".

I tole him, "NO...pie are round; cornbread are squared."

Posted by Invisible Hand, Oct 02, 2007 11:35AM

To 11:16, why in hell would someone work to get an engineering or math degree and then go teach at a public highschool for peanuts instead of working at an IB or HF. I'm sure there are a few who do this, but I think the overall result would be an overwhelming lack of teachers.

While I agree that Algebra, Geometry and even Calculus would be very helpful for MOST people to understand, I'm fine with the current environment. Smart kids seek out tougher classes and end up more successful. Other kids don't seek out challenges, barely get through Algebra II and end up in a job where they never need Alegbra II.

Posted by , Oct 02, 2007 11:36AM

10 million chinese college applicants per year. On the other hand, the National College Entrance Exam is practically the ONLY thing a college considers. Extracurriculum is entirely irrelevant. Maybe the US should try that system. See who wastes their time doing Model U.N. and yearbook then!

Posted by aja, Oct 02, 2007 11:39AM

Logic and game theory requirements?

You are a joke. You obviously have no idea how the world works!

Posted by Average Down, Oct 02, 2007 11:40AM

I think that if they're going to enforce some arbitrary academic performance standard (I mean seriously when are most of the Compton kids going to use Algebra) then it's only fair that there should be an arbitrary athletic performance standards. Let's say run the 40 yard dash in under 6 seconds and benchpress their own weight at least 25 times. After all, isn't obesity a bigger health risk than illiteracy or innumeracy?

Posted by mybankisworsethanciti, Oct 02, 2007 11:40AM

this is one of the dumbest arguments ever on this site

Posted by Josh, Oct 02, 2007 11:41AM

I have no problem with not forcing people who dont want to study in school study. Heck let them drink beer and hand them a high school diploma.

But tomorrow when they become janitors and auto workers, and have a brood to feed and no money - DONT ASK FOR MY FRIGGING MONEY in the form of taxes to pay for their children's insurance and god know what all.

I did way more than Algebra II in high school. Then why take my money to pay those who chose not to!!!!!

Posted by Fake Chuck Yeager, Oct 02, 2007 11:41AM

Invisible Hand: Why would someone who knows how to fly fighter jets want to teach other military pilots how to fly them when said pilot could be flying commercial heavies and making big bucks instead of military pay?

Some say, "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach".

I don't want to be acquainted with any of the folks who would say that. Teaching saves lives in more ways than one.

Posted by ceoandpresident, Oct 02, 2007 11:43AM

God forbid we try to make our education system a little more serious than the current joke it is. The U.S. has under invested in education for years now and it should be no surprise that we import a good size of talent from over seas.

Posted by Michael Bolton, Oct 02, 2007 11:46AM

For 11:29 AM:

Well, here's the thing: mathematics (and science in general) allows the young mind to develop proper logical processses, a structure in thinking that will serve it well throughout life. Furthermore, I am convinced that we cannot talk about building an information economy, whitout talking about building the base (which is all math). The only other alternative is to have millions of kids who all love English, drama, shop, and all kinds of sports, but otherwise are useless drones competing for 2 bit jobs and complaining about the system being unfair.

Posted by Invisible Hand, Oct 02, 2007 11:48AM

Fake Chuck - I completely agree that teaching is an immensely important and often overlooked occupation. However, I don't believe that raising the requirements to become a teacher will improve the product of our education system. If anything, it will stretch thin a system that is already over capacity.

Josh - I also dislike subsidizing other via my taxes, but at some point you have to realize that regardless of whether someone WANTS to study, some people will either never "get it," or will find themselves in disadvantaged situations through no fault of their own. I don't mean to criticize your point, just trying to provide a nuanced perspective.

Posted by DumbJockBanker, Oct 02, 2007 11:50AM

Aww ... Michael were you president of the Mu Alpha Theta club in high school? Sorry for stuffing you in your locker and hooking up with the girl you had a crush on.

Posted by The Ghost of Ayn Rand, Oct 02, 2007 11:54AM

If you think teachers are dumb, just give back your advanced diplomas and then try to go get that big banking job. Really, take your money back and give them back your HS, undergraduate and MBA or PhD diplomas. While you're at it, tell your parents or guardians they are failures for wasting their time teaching you things when they could have been working additional jobs to make more money. They'd probably be writing to you at your prison address in that case.

The Taliban also has a low opinion of teachers.

Posted by girl, Oct 02, 2007 11:57AM

@ 10:46- of course i'm not trying to impress you nimwits. I'm just arguing that any math that a 12 yr old can wrap her head around should be required of an adult entering the world. We should expect more of the children of america and see what they can accomplish; we may be pleasantly surprised.

@hillbilly banker...clever

Posted by Michael Bolton, Oct 02, 2007 12:00PM

Jock Banker:

Actually, you have me all wrong. Brushing aside your juvenile attempt at humor, my point was not that we all should be geeks; au contraire, I think we should all be well rounded individuals, and that includes a healthy dose of math. And by the way banker, was it your daddy or your abilities that helped get you the seemingly cushy job you enjoy?

Posted by , Oct 02, 2007 12:23PM

I took algebra in the 6th grade, geometry in the 7th, trig in the 8th, precalc 9th, calc 10th, second year of calc 11th, and linear algebra my senior year.

I minored in math in college.

I am a motherfucking quant.

Posted by inIT4the$, Oct 02, 2007 1:04PM

You gotta get the kids to AT LEAST get through Algebra II. Stat is important. Calc and Trig is probably a little much for the slower/ uninterested kids. Geometry is important for pretty much any job (and general spacial awareness). My father was in construction and used all sorts of math (he was not an exec or engineer), it's terribly important to learn.

Posted by anon anon anon, Oct 02, 2007 1:11PM

do addition, subtraction, division and multiplication. And a good introductory course in subprime mortages, interest, compound interest, predatory lending and know your priest/rabbi, doctor, lawyer, accountant, teacher and government (all parties) are out to screw you and you just might survive in the USA. It's a fucking blackboard jungle out there.

Posted by Anon, Oct 02, 2007 1:20PM

To Michael Bolton - I majored in English, and I don't think English really deserves to be lumped in with drama and shop. You suggest that math teaches logic, and I totally agree. But if you fail to see that English, History, Political Science, etc., also teach logic, you've missed out. (To be honest, even shop teaches logic and process. There is value in just about everything.)
My math skills are strong enough, but there are plenty of MIT and CalTech grads who can outmath me any day of the week. But are they better or more logical thinkers? Not really. In fact, some of them work for me now, and in general I'd say that they lack for big-picture thinking ability.

Posted by , Oct 02, 2007 1:28PM

Intelligence is distributed on a bell curve. Educational resources should be overwhelmingly distributed toward the right side of the curve where the investment yields the highest return. This is how it works for football, the best coaches and facilities only go to the best athletes. Everyone doesn't need a HS degree in the same way that everyone doesn't need NFL level football coaching. Some people will be working at McDonalds whether or not they have a HS diploma. Let them start at 15 instead of wasting three more years attempting to learn things they will never use, and using up resources that should be allocated to the smart students in the process. The diploma is only a piece of paper, its value is derived from the standards that must be met to earn it.

Posted by Calgary Schmooze, Oct 02, 2007 1:30PM

Next up - Erin Burnett on the decomposition of the Scientific Method and how American kids need more time in the lab...

It still blows me away that people would almost never admit that they're illiterate, but it's almost a badge of honor to say that "I'm a people person, not a numbers person." Oh, so it's not ok to be illiterate, but being innumerate is still sexy?

Basic problem-solving skills are good, but you also need to provide education on basic concepts such as "objectivity", "bias, "ability to reproduce", "reliability", and such. That's the kind of stuff you get from the applied sciences. It's also the stuff that allows people to start to question a lot of the drivel that is spouted by politicians, marketers and their ilk.

Or is everyone happy with a society of numerate drones?

Posted by JT, Oct 02, 2007 1:31PM

I think reasonably baring any serious mental deficiency, every kid in America should have to pass Algebra 2 and at least intro statistics, and even more helpful (either @ the HS or college level, would be a class on logic & arguments.

Yes, almost everyone here took at least 2 years of Calc while still in HS, and yes, in a perfect world everyone would understand at least introductory calc, but as others have pointed out, its not realistic.

I'm surprised that no one here has pointed out the importance of good parenting. I'm sure most all of you were raised by parents who were on your ass (I know mine were) to study, get good grades, etc. We can't blame the teachers/schools/curriculum if we're not willing to hold parents to a higher standard of responsibility (and they damn well should be held responsible).

Posted by Anon, Oct 02, 2007 1:34PM

A system where we send kids into a world where they will be pitched adjustable rate mortgages, credit cards, and payday loans, without a basic knowledge of mathematics is a failure of an educational system. If the kids can't learn the basic math skills to graduate from high school, then they will risk the real consequences of bankruptcy, foreclosure, and usury.

Posted by , Oct 02, 2007 1:36PM

1:28. you got it right. next question?

Posted by Michael Bolton, Oct 02, 2007 1:37PM

Anon 1:20

Point well taken. In my previous comments, you can see that I basically agree with you. Kids need to be well rounded in their education. Math is a necessary, integral part, but by no means does it have to be the one and only focus.

Posted by Sandy, Oct 02, 2007 5:40PM

At whoever said intelligence was Gaussian: It being understood that intelligence is difficult to quantify, people nevertheless try. And if we plotted those results, I'd be surprised if there weren't fatter tails than seen on a distribution of something more clearly Normal, such as height.

At the several espousing well-roundedness: I don't disagree, but perhaps well-roundedness isn't for everyone. Some students might benefit from specializing at an earlier age (that is, before 18/19/20) in order to best leverage their (relative) strengths. Others might have a broader curiosity and prefer to follow a generalist track for longer. I couldn't tell you which of these two groups would tend to be more successful; or even that one group would be more inclined to manage than the other. (That is, while I understand the intuition, I'm not sure that any meaningful correlation exists between one's management ability and the breadth of her studies.)

On education funding: Overall funding seems low to me (though that opinion's based more on ideology than any knowledge I have of the issue), and the funding we do have could certainly be more efficiently allocated. But this issue (and several others many have brought up) are not easily discussed in dealbreaker comments, so I'll save the rest of my opinions for another time.

Posted by Matt, Oct 03, 2007 4:44AM

"I took algebra in the 6th grade, geometry in the 7th, trig in the 8th, precalc 9th, calc 10th, second year of calc 11th, and linear algebra my senior year.

I minored in math in college.

I am a motherfucking quant."

You are a motherfucking tool.

Posted by Metlin, Oct 05, 2007 2:19PM

Well, the problem is that in the rest of the world, calculus, advanced statistics and linear algebra are being taught in high school.

I had my high-school education in India, and we had calculus and differential equations for our 11th and 12th grades. The same goes for most Asian countries (Japan, China, South Korea etc.), most of Europe (esp. Eastern Europe), Russia, Israel etc.

The problem is, I am worried about educating my kids in the US mostly because I do not want them to grow up ignorant in a system that is not designed to challenge them adequately.

In fact, in most of the rest of the world, kids learn advanced math at earlier ages than in the US and as someone with a strong mathematical background, this just scares me.

No, math is not the only subject that is important but as our society becomes more and more advanced, it is increasingly likely that a lot of the better jobs out there require more than a perfunctory understanding of math.

And no child left behind is fine, but it should not be at the expense of the best and the brightest out there.

Cheers.

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